(Pg. 180 October 1999 Interview Magazine �30 Years of Believing in Freedom of Expression�)

Interview with Michael Atkinson

With his raucous new movie Dogma-disowned by Disney because of it�s supposed incendiary content-the New Jersey director throws down the gauntlet. But is it a vulgar, sacrilegious assault on what tradition holds dear, or an affirmation of faith? Could it just possibly be both?

Whatever you say, claim, or holler about Kevin Smith�s new film Dogma, there�s no denying it�s one of a kind-a profane, sophomoric comic-book odyssey through a modern-day America populated by vengeful angels, divine bloodlines, black Apostles, shit demons, and God herself. It might stand as the most forthrightly Catholic movie seen in America since The Song of Bernadette (1943). Smith both contemplates the cosmos and casts Jay and Silent Bob as horny prophets: there�s no low too low, no concept too lofty. Dogma has already inspired right-wing protests and terrified Miramax-parent Disney into seeking distribution elsewhere. (Miramax was in talks with Lion�s gate at press time, with a November release date penciled in). Dogma could be Smith�s Waterloo or his Calvary. Either way it�s a film he had to make. Why?

Michael Atkinson: What was your intention in making the movie?

Kevin Smith: I think for me the flick was my own celebration of faith. I�ve been hitting a lot of masses that were kind of on the boring side. Sometimes when you force people to go to church every week, you wind up more with a funeral dirge than a mass. It seems to me there a lot of people in church who aren�t there because they want to celebrate God more, but because they�re terrified of going to Hell. I just wanted to do something that was pro-faith and expressed my spirituality-my Catholicism. And in the process, I figured, you know, a few dick and fart jokes wouldn�t hurt.

MA: There�s definitely a dichotomy there.

KS: It�s kind of a split between the corporeal and the spiritual in the flick. But that�s pretty much like life. When people think of their spirituality, at least in my age group, you�ve always kind of caught between the soul and the flesh, aren�t you? If I was going to get up there and make a movie about faith or religion and it wasn�t funny, it would be didactic and very soapboxy-and who wants to sit through that? I mean, I�m not Christ, but one of the things that I really dig about his that he did his best work when he was working through parables. People of the time just didn�t understand what the hell he was talking about, so he would always tell them a story: �All right there�s a good shepherd,: or whatever. I�m putting forward my point of view in my own yeomanlike manner.

MA: I kept thinking that you as a filmmaker aren�t very far from the George Carlin character (hard-sell Cardinal Glick) when he says �Catholicism Wow!�

KS: There�s definitely a bit of self-satirization in Cardinal Glick and the �Catholicism Wow!� stuff-he�s a very sincere salesman. The movie certainly pulls no punches, even on my behalf.

MA: Do you have a single personal favorite memory of Churchgoing?

KS: I was an altar boy for eight, ten, twelve years. At least I was involved. I didn�t have to sit in the audience. There�s the theatricality of the mass, which is always kind of kickin�. You see your friends, and then the people you don�t like, you kind of slam them in the throat with the Communion plate. You feel you�re part of the whole process. Over the course of the last five or six years, a lot has happened to me out of nowhere: The whole career thing, that was really sweet, and then I married and I�ve got a beautiful little baby. It�s a blessing I�ve definitely received. To me it�s like, God, one hour a week pop into church and kind of give thanks and celebrate. It�s not too much to ask.

MA: So your dissatisfaction has not been with Catholic Dogma per se, but with the way it�s been presented and integrated into contemporary culture?

KS: Sometimes the Dogma can be a bit problematic. When you�re sitting in church and the priest�s railing against the gay community, and most of the people you know are gay, it�s kind of hard to sit there and go like, Yeah, this is what I want to do every week, come here and listen to my friends and family get preached against. You sit there and go, Wasn�t the guy we based all this on pretty much a �love one another� guy? In fact, if Christ did anything, he ministered to the minorities, to the bungled and the botched. Christ didn�t hang out with the elite and pious. He hung out with hookers and tax collectors and lepers. It would seem today that Christ wouldn�t even be welcome in churches that are established in his name.

MA: I was born and raised Catholic, and I�m about as fallen today as I could possibly be. You look up �lapsed� in the dictionary, and there�s my picture.

KS: Many people are, and that�s kind of who the movie is for. It�s pretty much for the teenagers who have reached the point where the parents stop dragging them to church, and they decide, Well I�m not going any more, this shit is stupid. The way we blend both the divine and very, very mortal in the flick, it�s a spoonful-of sugar approach to a lot of that theology.

MA: The Catholic League (the conservative Catholic pressure group that has vilified Dogma) isn�t even officially affiliated with the Catholic Church and the Vatican, it is?

KS: Well, it�s certainly not sanctioned by Rome or the Archdiocese of New York, but I don�t see the church trying to shut it down either. It�s an ongoing massive conspiracy of a certain small group of people who want to keep everyone just stupid, just as dumb as a bag of hammers: �Don�t ask any questions; just believe what we�re telling you.�

MA: Well, they did the same thing with Scorese�s Last Temptation of Christ (1998).

KS: What happened with Last Temptation was simply disgusting. I never even go a chance to see the movie in the theater. When I finally saw it on video, I said, �This? This is what they attacked> This is a commercial for faith!� And my movie doesn�t portray Christ at all! I can�t believe they�re that outraged at a movie with a rubber poop monster. It just seems unbelievable. At the end of the day, if you�re going to object to anything, object to the fact that maybe I�m tasteless. But certainly not anti-Catholic or anti-Christian.

MA: If the Vatican was smart, they�d endorse Dogma.

KS: That�s what irritates me about the whole Catholic League thing! W3ehn they came out against the movie I was like, �Motherfucker, I am doing what should be your job.�

MA: At times during the movie I was thinking, This is kind of an outlandish episode of (TV�s) Davey and Goliath.

KS: Exactly. (Laughs) If Goliath were humping Davey�s leg though.

MA: It seems to me that the difficulty you would have with this film is specifically because it is such an overtly religious movie. Nobody makes movies like that.

KS: In many ways, it may be too much of niche film. Sometimes I watch the movie and go, God, you�ve really got to know some shit to understand this picture. But hopefully, there�s enough stuff in there to entertain people who don�t know what the fuck we�re talking about in terms of theology. That�s why we have the cast we do. Early on, (Miramax boss) Harvey (Weinstein) was like, �We�ve got to pack the movie with names, get some name faces in there.� I said, �Why?� He said, �Because nobody�s going to want to see it otherwise.�

MA: Did making the movie answer any specific questions you had? I didn�t get an impression from the movie that you were perfectly settled with everything you believed in or that you swallowed the Dogma hook, line, and sinker.

KS: I�m like most other people, man, and most people who are kind of rational say, This is my faith, and I can�t really back it up. There�s the age-old argument: If there is such a benevolent God, why do bad things happen? I don�t know, and I never will. You should always be questioning, because question or doubt eventually brings about reassurance in one�s faith. Tit�s the difference between fanaticism and faith. Fanaticism is something that�s always been a danger to faith. That�s when you get people who will pick up a Bible and point to a passage and go, �this is why we�re supposed to hate niggers.�

MA: One of the more essentially religious moments of the movie is when Salma Hayek, as a Muse, says, � It doesn�t matter what religion you follow as long as you have faith.� Two questions: Why doesn�t it matter? And why is faith necessary-is it an intrinsic good?

KS: It�s one of the presumptions that you�ll notice the movie fails to back up. If anything, the movie raises questions. The filmmaker himself was raised Catholic. If I was Hindu or whatever, it�d be a different movie. There are all different kinds of faith, but (I think) it�s a many-faiths-one-God kind of thing. It doesn�t matter what your particular Dogma is, just as (END OF PARAGRAPH MISSING).

MA: What about your mix-and-match mythologies? A lot of it was new to me.

KS: Well, the name of Loki (played by Matt Damon) is from Norse mythology.

MS: Or from The Mighty Thor (comic book).

KS: Exactly. Bartleby (Ben Affleck), is from Melville�s �Bartleby the Scrvener.� The Muse is from Greek Mythology, but a Muse is kind of an angel, isn�t it?

MA: So what about abortion?

KS: Whoo! That�s a dicey topic. My approach to it has always been like, I will never have to make that choice. And because I will never have to make that choice, I really shouldn�t have anything to say about it. I think the question comes down to whether or not I believe abortion is a sin, more than anything else. Because we sin all the time. I certainly don�t look at a murderer and go, like �You�re a sinner, man,� and condemn the dude. It�s just, �What you�ve done is wrong, but it�s on your conscience; you�ve got to live with that.� I�ve got to deal with my own crap. But it�s not my place to sit there in judgement of other people.

MA: The movie doesn�t really deal with good and Evil, but instead the inadequacy of Good.

KS: There�s a lot of gray in the movie. (Fallen-angel) Bartleby stars off as a kind of level-headed decent dude, who just perhaps became e a bit too human in many ways, and suddenly is swept away by jealous of the human race. We do have Azrael (Jason Lee), the villain of the piece. But even Azrael�s whole case is not very balck-and-0white. I mean, he�s not your classic �I�m doing this to raise all of the armies of Hell!� flat out and out evil. Yeah, I was real careful, and I�m proud of the fact that the film�s not very Good-versus-Evil.

MA: Do you pray?

KS: All the time. I have a family now; I pray constantly! My prayers used to be all about thanks and �please don�t let me die for a long time.� Now it�s just a lot of prayers of thanks, and �please don�t let anything happen to the family for a long time.�

MA: You can�t help that. How old is the baby?

KS: Four months. My prayers are awfully pleading right now.

MA: Oh, parenthood leaves you an open wound?

KS: Absolutely. I just never felt more vulnerable my whole life. But I look forward to raising my kid Catholic- just a different kind of Catholic than I was raised. My parents pretty much said, �Everything you hear in Church is accurate.� They never left room for questioning or independent study thought on the subject. And I look forward to raising my kid with a mixture of both.

MA: How do you think the movie�s going to be perceived when it finally opens?

KS: So many people have heard about this movie. In the context of the controversy that is Dogma and very few in the context of the entertainment that is Dogma. But the people who are really pissed off at the movie would never have gone in the first place, so it might be OK. God only knows.

Originally transcribed by Stephen Cohn

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